Comments on: AST Certification Debate http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/ Online musings of Tim Coulter Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:16:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: One of the Wolves » Best. Conference. Ever. http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-54 One of the Wolves » Best. Conference. Ever. Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:42:37 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-54 [...] enjoyed this CAST more than the other two previous CASTs. Though CAST 2007 sported a fun and enlightening certification debate, and CAST 2006 paved ground with an interesting but heated discussion after the first keynote, this [...] [...] enjoyed this CAST more than the other two previous CASTs. Though CAST 2007 sported a fun and enlightening certification debate, and CAST 2006 paved ground with an interesting but heated discussion after the first keynote, this [...]

]]> By: Dan Pompea http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-44 Dan Pompea Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:54:46 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-44 I've done software testing for a little over 4 years. I had the misfortune of taking one of IIST's International Testing Certification Week (ITCW) course sets. It was far below my expectations for professional training, and this gave me the impression that the "Certifications" were of equally low value. Even though IIST marketed these ITCW weeks with a money-back guarantee if I wasn't satisfied, they've come up with one excuse after another and I can't get my money back from them. I'm out about $2500. Yes, they're definitely in business to make a profit! I’ve done software testing for a little over 4 years. I had the misfortune of taking one of IIST’s International Testing Certification Week (ITCW) course sets. It was far below my expectations for professional training, and this gave me the impression that the “Certifications” were of equally low value. Even though IIST marketed these ITCW weeks with a money-back guarantee if I wasn’t satisfied, they’ve come up with one excuse after another and I can’t get my money back from them. I’m out about $2500. Yes, they’re definitely in business to make a profit!

]]> By: Adam Goucher » Blog Archive » Where should the AST be heading? http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-45 Adam Goucher » Blog Archive » Where should the AST be heading? Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:34:27 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-45 [...] regardless of philosophical conflicts on such contencious issues as certification. There is the perception already that we have blown this one for just that reason and it was a relief to see someone share [...] [...] regardless of philosophical conflicts on such contencious issues as certification. There is the perception already that we have blown this one for just that reason and it was a relief to see someone share [...]

]]> By: John McConda http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-47 John McConda Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:39:35 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-47 I'm not looking for school unification. There was a long, contentious thread on that in the software-testing Yahoo group. What I am saying is that if AST is going to grow, we need some way of reaching out to the newbie tester. The certification folks are doing a great job of that, by offering something tangible to just about anyone with no experience. The school of thought that they learn in the process often becomes the basis for their career in testing. I'm saying that AST needs to be deliberately reaching out to these people. I think the Open Certification could be a good way to do that. Cem Kaner said himself that the Open Certification is a concession to the popularity of these tests (paraphrase from Wednesday's debate). I think it is such a hotly debated issue because the certifications do tend to represent the schools of thought. It's almost to the point where if you don't have a certification test for your school, it might as well not exist in the eyes of outsiders. I’m not looking for school unification. There was a long, contentious thread on that in the software-testing Yahoo group.

What I am saying is that if AST is going to grow, we need some way of reaching out to the newbie tester. The certification folks are doing a great job of that, by offering something tangible to just about anyone with no experience. The school of thought that they learn in the process often becomes the basis for their career in testing. I’m saying that AST needs to be deliberately reaching out to these people. I think the Open Certification could be a good way to do that.

Cem Kaner said himself that the Open Certification is a concession to the popularity of these tests (paraphrase from Wednesday’s debate). I think it is such a hotly debated issue because the certifications do tend to represent the schools of thought. It’s almost to the point where if you don’t have a certification test for your school, it might as well not exist in the eyes of outsiders.

]]> By: Adam Goucher http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-46 Adam Goucher Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:41:27 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-46 Not to completely hijack the tread (I'll produce my own on my own blog as this has been bubbling around for awhile), but in response to: AST must appear more open to “outsiders” if we’re to be a viable organization to the majority of new testers out there. The perception last Wednesday, real or not, amongst some attendees was that we are exclusive of those with differing opinions. I agree in principle to this, and would like see it happen, but I don't think it will ever happen. At least with the current leadership in place. Don't get me wrote, I think they're all smart and dedicated and threw an enjoyable conference, but they are also all from the 'context' school and relations between the perceived schools are, shall we say, frosty at best most times. Until such a time as there is some grand unification effort between the 'schools' I suspect AST will remain a pseudo-clique of similar thinking people. Much like ASQ and the CMMi crowd have similar cliques. And I'm not sure that that is such a Bad Thing[tm] -adam Not to completely hijack the tread (I’ll produce my own on my own blog as this has been bubbling around for awhile), but in response to:

AST must appear more open to “outsiders” if we’re to be a viable organization to the majority of new testers out there. The perception last Wednesday, real or not, amongst some attendees was that we are exclusive of those with differing opinions.

I agree in principle to this, and would like see it happen, but I don’t think it will ever happen. At least with the current leadership in place. Don’t get me wrote, I think they’re all smart and dedicated and threw an enjoyable conference, but they are also all from the ‘context’ school and relations between the perceived schools are, shall we say, frosty at best most times. Until such a time as there is some grand unification effort between the ’schools’ I suspect AST will remain a pseudo-clique of similar thinking people. Much like ASQ and the CMMi crowd have similar cliques. And I’m not sure that that is such a Bad Thing[tm]

-adam

]]> By: José Alejandro Betancur http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-48 José Alejandro Betancur Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:10:31 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-48 Thanks to put this resume of the event here. I cant make it to CAST, but I had to deal with certifications every day. Everyone here at Colombia ask you about them, and I think they have no real value. I would look forward to see where is going the open cert. Thanks to put this resume of the event here.

I cant make it to CAST, but I had to deal with certifications every day. Everyone here at Colombia ask you about them, and I think they have no real value.

I would look forward to see where is going the open cert.

]]> By: John McConda http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-51 John McConda Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:26:13 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-51 Thanks for summarizing Tim. I have to say I was troubled by the event. I think the main reason is that I feel AST got a black eye in the minds of those who don't know everything the organization is about. I say this because my perception of bias in the room against the three organizations was palpable. The reason for this, I believe was the low attendance of neutral attendees or attendees who were certificate holders and supported one of the organizations. That and the Open Cert AST sponsorship that you mentioned made the debate appear to be a "setup", in the eyes of many. (A word I heard frequently that day). Whatever happens with certification, I want AST to continue to grow and be a home for impartial, thought-provoking discussion where anyone who cares about software testing should feel welcome. There are literally thousands of testers out there who are inexperienced and right or wrong, look to certification as a first step towards being someone in the industry. I don't want AST to appear elitist and shut those kinds of people out. I really couldn't care less about getting the heads of the certifying bodies to all agree with each other (though three of them apparently do already?!). What I really care about is bringing in the newest of us and showing them that testing is about thinking for yourself and learning what approach works best for you. AST must appear more open to "outsiders" if we're to be a viable organization to the majority of new testers out there. The perception last Wednesday, real or not, amongst some attendees was that we are exclusive of those with differing opinions. Thanks for summarizing Tim. I have to say I was troubled by the event. I think the main reason is that I feel AST got a black eye in the minds of those who don’t know everything the organization is about. I say this because my perception of bias in the room against the three organizations was palpable. The reason for this, I believe was the low attendance of neutral attendees or attendees who were certificate holders and supported one of the organizations. That and the Open Cert AST sponsorship that you mentioned made the debate appear to be a “setup”, in the eyes of many. (A word I heard frequently that day).

Whatever happens with certification, I want AST to continue to grow and be a home for impartial, thought-provoking discussion where anyone who cares about software testing should feel welcome. There are literally thousands of testers out there who are inexperienced and right or wrong, look to certification as a first step towards being someone in the industry. I don’t want AST to appear elitist and shut those kinds of people out.

I really couldn’t care less about getting the heads of the certifying bodies to all agree with each other (though three of them apparently do already?!). What I really care about is bringing in the newest of us and showing them that testing is about thinking for yourself and learning what approach works best for you.

AST must appear more open to “outsiders” if we’re to be a viable organization to the majority of new testers out there. The perception last Wednesday, real or not, amongst some attendees was that we are exclusive of those with differing opinions.

]]> By: Adam Goucher http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-50 Adam Goucher Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:06:00 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-50 This link will likely be dead in a couple days as I am re-org'ing my site, but here is my commentary on certification abusing Tim's attendance numbers. The short version is "let's rat-hole the whole debate". http://www.goucher.ca/blog/?p=243 -adam This link will likely be dead in a couple days as I am re-org’ing my site, but here is my commentary on certification abusing Tim’s attendance numbers. The short version is “let’s rat-hole the whole debate”.

http://www.goucher.ca/blog/?p=243

-adam

]]> By: Adam Goucher » Blog Archive » Can we please rat-hole the certification issue? http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-49 Adam Goucher » Blog Archive » Can we please rat-hole the certification issue? Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:03:43 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-49 [...] Project (he wrote the question server) and as a result attended the debate. According to his post 9 (+/- 2) people sat in on the debate. That is 4.89% of the 184 total CAST2007 attendees and 7.96% [...] [...] Project (he wrote the question server) and as a result attended the debate. According to his post 9 (+/- 2) people sat in on the debate. That is 4.89% of the 184 total CAST2007 attendees and 7.96% [...]

]]> By: erik petersen http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-53 erik petersen Mon, 16 Jul 2007 01:08:07 +0000 http://www.oneofthewolves.com/2007/07/12/ast-certification-debate/#comment-53 Thanks for writing this up. Any standards always lag, but it is scary how slow this is. I was part of the IEEE 829 test doco update last year, and one of my first comments was why is there no mention of a test strategy? Apparently it wasn't in the scope of the revision. I have been using test strategy docs since the early 1990s, yet the standard does still not mention them. All the BOKs use 829, so they also have this issue..... I liked the reference to Glenford Myers. I actually won the STARwest best paper last year, revisiting Glenford's testing axioms 30 years on. Go to www.testingspot.net, then search for Glenford Myers to read it. Some of his key ideas have been forgotten, especially around bug clusters..... cheers, Erik Melbourne, Australia Thanks for writing this up. Any standards always lag, but it is scary how slow this is. I was part of the IEEE 829 test doco update last year, and one of my first comments was why is there no mention of a test strategy? Apparently it wasn’t in the scope of the revision. I have been using test strategy docs since the early 1990s, yet the standard does still not mention them. All the BOKs use 829, so they also have this issue…..
I liked the reference to Glenford Myers. I actually won the STARwest best paper last year, revisiting Glenford’s testing axioms 30 years on.
Go to http://www.testingspot.net, then search for Glenford Myers to read it. Some of his key ideas have been forgotten, especially around bug clusters…..
cheers,
Erik
Melbourne, Australia

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